Chapter 8 Pt. 1 – Messaging Concepts (General)
Chapter 8 Pt. 1 – Messaging Concepts (General)
Text Game Overview
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This is a huge chapter with many subtleties and nuances. However, it is important to understand right away that there is no such thing as magical text game. There is just “optimal” and “suboptimal”. Suboptimal texting is long winded, indirect, corny, random, full of emoticons, choady, supplicating, lacks purpose, etc. Optimal text game on the other hand will be purposeful, succinct, curt, strategic, witty, intriguing, tension building and properly dealing with shit-tests/objections.
A guy with suboptimal text game might still get the same girl out who has been flaking on a guy with optimal text game. Women match with a variety of men. Some they are really attracted to and some barely passable. The guy in the former category might fuck up a few times and still get the date. While the other guy runs optimal text game and gets objection after objection. The two men could even be equally good looking, but had different level of pics. Fortunately by now you understand the value of working to increase your SMV and have acquired pictures that portray that SMV at least a point higher. As a result of that you have already separated yourself from 98% of your competition on Tinder. Now by learning optimal text game in this chapter, you will be able to capitalize on all those opportunities
Think of having really good pics, being really good looking, having optimal text game and having really good game. If you are really good looking, often times girls will make things easier for you. Perhaps even pull you. Though without that good game you would only be capitalizing on a fraction of your opportunities and largely relying on chance. The guy with the really good game will capitalize on most of his opportunities, but he will have to work a lot harder and run much higher volume to get the same opportunities in the first place. The ideal is to maximize both. That’s when your results explode.
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General Optimal Texting Guidelines
- Always keep your purpose in mind – This one is first for a reason. If I had to pick only one guideline, it would be this. Your purpose is usually the meetup. However, sometimes it can be screening the girl if you are not yet sure whether she is worth meeting up with (i.e she looks super prude, she doesn’t have clear body pics, etc). Those are really the only two purposes you can have. Everything else is just a means to those ends. The number isn’t the purpose. Good banter isn’t the purpose. Getting her to sext isn’t the purpose. They are all just means to the end. The most common mistakes guys make with their text game stem from not having a clear purpose. They banter endlessly. Their conversation is all over the place. They keep trying to make small talk. Meanwhile, the girl winds up falling for the guy who kept his purpose in mind, got her out and actually fucked her. Don’t be her long time texting buddy.
- Be direct in pursuing your purpose – She is really on Tinder because she wants to meetup and potentially have sex with a guy(s). It’s important to realize this and act accordingly. Not doing so is equivalent to a salesman who keeps trying to build rapport with a customer who is already sold. Most guys will pussy foot around inviting her to meetup…if they ask at all. Don’t be one of them. Instead, be bold and unapologetic in pursuing your purpose. This will further boost your SMV in her eyes. There is nothing women love more than men who are unafraid to go for what they want.
- Be calibrated & smart – There is a big “However” to the previous point and that is you should be bold and direct in a calibrated and socially intelligent way. That means not skipping or rushing banter. If it looks like the girl needs more comfort, if a girl is giving you objections or expressing concerns, you take a step back and deal with it before proceeding forward. As previously mentioned, by far the most common mistake guys make is that they beat around the bush for ages and have conversations that go nowhere. However, second place would probably go to the guys who take the other extreme. They are impatient, uncalibrated, and pay no attention to what is likely going through the girl’s mind. This causes them to blow out most of their interactions by not being adequate to deal with the girls needs (comfort, sexual, logistical, etc), concerns (safety, feeling used, etc) and objections (anti-ONS, meeting straight at house, etc). Conversely, it can also mean not picking up on hints and cues that the girl gives you to be more direct or escalate (common amongst guys who message without a purpose)
- Be curt & succinct – Would Leonardo DiCaprio have time to send long personal texts or would he be so busy from years of having to text 100’s of girls every day? Or will he have developed a habit of saying everything with as little effort as possible? The answer is the latter. It is much more high value to say things as curtly and succinctly as possible, while still getting your point across. You should avoid getting wordy or long-winded at all costs. With every message think “how could I get this point across with fewer words?”. After a while, I promise it will become second nature.
- Avoid excessive emoticons, “Lols”, and punctuation marks – This goes back to the previous point of how Leonardo Dicaprio would text. He would very likely be so busy that he wouldn’t have time for any of that. Fortunately for you, the majority of guys on Tinder overly rely on emoticons because they don’t want to risk having the girl get offended at anything they say. This is the equivalent of always “seeking rapport” or talking in a way that seeks permission with every word. Removing emoticons will add more intensity and umph to everything you say. The same can be said with punctuation marks! Vast majority of time they are just unnecessary. Limit your questions! Excessive questions may make you seem needy, lacking experience or knowledge and can ruin the flow of the conversation. The advice I give to all my beginner and intermediate clients is to completely remove emoticons, “lols”, “Hahas”, and punctuation marks from their vocabulary for a month. This might be a little difficult at first, but the increase in results will make it well worth it.
- Keep investment level in check– Simply put, don’t write more than her. Your messages should generally be the same size as hers or even better less. Mastering the previous two points will allow you to do this one with ease. Fortunately most guys on Tinder will over invest and write much more than the girl. This will cause them to seem a lot more needy and put you ahead of the competition Note: this shouldn’t be taken super literally to mean that you can’t have a single message longer than hers. Sometimes it’s necessary to write more to get your point across. We are talking about the general investment throughout the whole interaction
- Avoid faulty/boring/cliche topics – The ones that come to most people’s minds are obviously religion/politics and yes, you should definitely stay well clear of them. However, I am going to expand this to include any topic that does not serve your purpose (of screening or getting her out). That means if this topic has a potential to get you sidetracked from your purpose, then don’t engage in it. She wants to ramble about politics, give her just enough (being calibrated) and return to something that serves your purpose (talking about fun things you could be doing, screening logistics, etc.) You are the man and it is your job to lead the conversation. This means you set the tone and avoid being cliché or boring from the start. Don’t start asking her about her job (unless you are extremely curious) or other boring things she mentions in her profile. Instead, you want the conversation to be flirty, lighthearted, exciting, full of tension and overall just fun. It should NOT feel like an interview.
- Don’t write messages that are difficult to respond to – The truth is any attractive girl on Tinder is getting bombarded with messages. Portraying a high SMV and following the first seven principles will separate you from the vast vast majority of your competition. However, that could all be for naught if your message requires her to mentally strain to think of a response. Going back to the previous point, girls don’t go on Tinder to “think”, they go on there to have fun. Disregard anything in their bios about wanting intellectual conversation. Believe us, it’s not what you think. She may want you to demonstrate you have the qualities, but she doesn’t want to have long intellectual, complex discussion and debates via Tinder.There is, however, a big distinction between getting the girl to invest and writing difficult messages for her to respond to. Let’s take a response to the question “Hey how’s it going?”. A difficult message for her to respond to would be “Good” or “everything is good”, etc. Now she has to think what do I say next to that…. However, if you had said “Good, packing for a flight to Miami” It is significantly easier for her to respond to. She can comment about her experience with Miami, she can ask you how long you are going for or why you are going. All things that make her invest more without causing her to actually have to “mentally strain” is ideal.
- Be persistent– A girl might forget to respond at some point or reschedule on you a few times. This is unfortunately quite common with hot girls. Assuming all other factors are the same, the guy that wins out in the end will usually be the most persistent one. He will not give up and keep pursuing his purpose in a smart and calibrated way. Most guys fall into the trap of either being too needy or being too paranoid of being needy. There is a fine line between the two and it often comes down to motivation. A needy person persists, because he NEEDS the result. This causes him to make mistakes and run sub-optimal text game. Not to mention, the girl will almost always pick up on this needy vibe and be more reluctant to meet. A persistent guy persists because he is a man who WANTS the result and is going to take what he wants. The girl will often pick up on this and admire his determination and persistence.
- Don’t get attached– Don’t fall into the trap of overvaluing a woman you’ve never met. The best way to avoid neediness is to avoid getting attached. At the end of the day she is just bits and pixels on a screen until you meet her. If you are unattached, you won’t be afraid of offending her, being direct and bold, persisting, screening or letting her know she crossed a personal boundary (if necessary). On the other hand, if you get attached you will “play it safe”, over invest, force the conversation, be afraid to persist and worst of all, likely become needy. You should still be smart and run optimal text game. However, by not getting attached your mind will come up with much better texts and reduce your likelihood of making stupid, costly mistakes.
- Conversation To Nowhere– As previously mentioned, this is by far the most common mistake guys make on tinder. It is less frequently seen on pick-up forums, but if you go through a girl’s Tinder the vast majority of the guys she is talking to (non-pick up guys) will be beating around the bush and talking about the most random shit. This lack of purpose is often annoying to a girl. Imagine a salesman who knocks on your door. He is nice and you like him, so you don’t want to shut the door in his face, but he just won’t get to the point and keeps trying to be your buddy. Now imagine it happens to you ten times a day for a year. In addition, women overwhelmingly don’t respect men who don’t go for what they want and since you are on Tinder she automatically assumes you want something. Take a look at the example below:
I purposely chose a more moderate example. These “conversations to nowhere” can often go for dozens of screenshots until the girl eventually gets bored and stops responding. The girl will often give numerous cues that it’s time for you to get to the point. This is what happened here. After two screenshots of aimless messaging, she asks him where he lives. He gives her a vague area and she tries to clarify. She is doing what he should be doing and trying to figure out the logistics (a lot of girls won’t go that far, it’s your job to lead, not hers). However, he is completely oblivious and inquires why she is asking. She indirectly signals again that she wants to possibly come over. Once again, he completely misses that cue and suggests that they “go somewhere nice when he finishes work”.
Even though he rambled on about shit that made little sense the girl stuck with him. She even attempted to do his job for him. He made it difficult for her by not picking up on her numerous clues and completely talked himself out of potentially having her come straight to his house. This is very suboptimal text game. Furthermore, if the girl likes him enough to still go out with him, he has positioned himself as a friend or a provider at best. A woman will not be turned on by a man who can’t pick up on obvious hints, beats around the bush, doesn’t lead and most importantly lacks purpose. Fortunately for you, this is the majority of guys on Tinder.
- Over gaming/weird – This is a PUA version of “Conversations To Nowhere” and is the most common mistake I see in pick up groups. There can be a lot of overlap between this and the previous point. However, with “over gaming” there is also a lot of overlying on lines & routines and/or a weird “shtick”. This stems from a fear the guy has of relying on himself and having a normal conversation where he makes himself vulnerable by expressing his interest (small vulnerability, but a vulnerability nevertheless). The “lines” and “routines” often act as a shield against this. Unfortunately, the over gaming winds up weirding the girl out and causes her to see the guy as a dancing money, not a normal human being, who she can have some kind of relationship with (platonic, romantic, or sexual). Like “Conversations ToNowhere”, part of the problem is not keeping your purpose in mind and/or being afraid to directly pursue that purpose. Take a look at the examples below:
The conversation starts right away with an overly gamey opener and the girl responds with a flirtatious hesitation. The right call would have been to try to transition out of this and into a more normal conversation as smoothly as possible. I would’ve responded with either “not on here much tbh. Always working/traveling” or “only the ones with the sexy tattoos/glasses/etc”. Instead, he presses on with the overly gamey shtick and makes a nonsensical comment about her being a fake account. Nevertheless, she invests and gives him a real response about herself and logistics. This was another opportunity to drop the shtick and have more of a “real conversation”. Instead he attempts to close (in a vague and weird way) using his overly gamey shtick and she stops responding. Most of these lines were copied from RSD Jeffy and without attention to vibe or context.
- Purposeless Number Close – This commonly goes along with the previous point. A lot of PUA’s will run overly gamey lines thinking that will impress the girl enough to give them her number. This is a very very sub-optimal approach. The number should never be the goal. The goal is the meetup (with rare exceptions of more screening being necessary). The number is just a means to that goal, as is everything else. That means you should be, at the very least, getting the girl to agree to the general idea of hanging out before going for the number (more on this in the “Closing” section). There needs to be a reason for the number. Otherwise, the girl will be significantly more hesitant to give it to you. Take a look at the two examples below:
As is often the case, the purposeless number close is preluded by “over-gameyness”. However, in this case it’s fairly mild and is a lot more witty & smooth compared to the previous few examples. Although still a little cheesy, it’s good enough and the girl responds positively throughout the conversation. The downward descent begins after the girl asks him what he is looking for. He gives her a very round-about indirect answer. The whole message would’ve been much better summed up with “a cool girl I have chemistry with”. Very likely the girl would’ve responded positively or chased even more. Then assuming there was no objections, the guy could have closed in a smart way (covered in the “closing” section).
After making concrete plans and coordinating logistics, he should’ve grabbed the number. This would have significantly increased his chances of getting it and would’ve likely taken no more than a few more messages. Instead he follows up his vague response with an attempt at a purposeless number close. Put yourself in the girls shoes. She is thinking this is guy is witty, but why is he asking me for my number? Is he going to call me right now? Is he going to use the number to text me for weeks beating around the bush? These questions make her significantly more hesitant to give her the number and she deflects with some more banter. At the point, it’s still not too late. I would’ve put the number requests on hold, dropped the shtick and transitioned to making concrete plans. Instead, the guy persists, ignores her cue and goes for the purposeless number close a second time.
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Things start off great. The girl messages him first (great sign) with a sexual reference in regards to his bio. That means she is interested and DTF. His responses on the first page are decent. He establishes himself as a dominant man (good) and gets her to qualify herself (also good). However, he prematurely attempts to get her number in a semi-purposeless number close. It’s not as bad as the previous example. However, coming from the girl’s perspective… why does he need her number to set something up? This would’ve likely still worked if the girl had no objections/concerns.
In this case she did (most girls will have at least one). She indirectly communicates that to him with her response. Maybe she wants to inquire more about his penis size, his sexual prowess, his kinks, their sexual compatibility, logistics, etc. Had he escalated in a smarter way (covered in the closing chapter), she very likely would’ve brought up something along the lines of that before agreeing to the general idea of hanging out. His follow up response is fairly bad and looks like a defense mechanism. Instead, I would’ve dug for those objections fairly directly by responding with “what would you like to know”
- Closing in a Sub Optimal Way – This is the cousin of the “purposeless number close”. Both involve a lack of tact, patience and social calibration. This is a fairly broad category, but essentially involves trying to meet up in a way that gives you a lower chance of getting a positive result. This means asking her to hang out when you already know she is busy, asking for too much compliance (unusual first date) or basically anything that makes meeting up with you more difficult. Note: There is a big exception to this rule and that is if you legitimately have a serious time limitation. For instance, if it’s your last night in that country. Then, you often have to close in a sub-optimal way because it’s either now or never. Let’s take a look at the example below:
The conversation starts off fine. The problem arises when the guy tries to close. The girl tells him she has dinner with friends. In response, he says he does too, but suggests that he will ditch his friends to meet up with her and that she should do the same. This is bad for two reasons. First of all, telling a girl that you will cancel on your friends to hang out with her is quite low value and will instantly lose you points. It heavily implies either a lack of options or that you overvalue her (quite inappropriately since you haven’t even met). Secondly, the vast majority of girls (especially the hotter ones) will prioritize their friends over guys from the internet who they haven’t met yet. This is fighting a losing battle. A much better approach would’ve been to further prod for logistics and suggest the meet up for later in the night or some other time that week.
- Not Calibrating/Missing DTF Girls – This is when a girl suggests that she is horny and is consciously or subconsciously looking to fuck that night, but the guy doesn’t get the hint. In a sense, this is the opposite of the previous example. However, both stem from a lack of social intuition. Too fast or too slow. Too direct or not direct enough. The key is to pay attention to the girl’s responses and adjust your game as necessary. No need to banter if the girl is trying to fuck. Also, a lot of the time when a girl signaling she is horny and wants to meet right away and you don’t meet her that night, you may lose your chance forever. Let’s take a look at the two examples below:
The conversation starts off well. Right away the girl references something sexual in his profile and implies that she is DTF. There are two possible ways to proceed here: get her a bit more horny with some tactful sexting or screen for logistics. The guys chooses the latter approach. I would’ve first figured out if she wanted to meet that night with a feeler text “you feeling adventurous tonight?”, but that wasn’t the main issue. The real fuck up was his last message to which the girl didn’t respond.
First of all, he completely shut down the possibility of meeting up that night. If she was horny and really looking to get laid that night, then there may not be another time. Secondly, she is giving him a green light to go straight for the kill and he is taking a step back and pussy-footing around it. There is no need to do drinks in public. He should be inviting her straight to his place. Lastly, he is saying drinks in her area. This is like blindly throwing darts at a dartboard. If she has a roommate or her place isn’t an option for any reason, yet she wants to fuck, then the drinks will be a waste of time. She knows this, but he doesn’t.
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This example has less to do with not capitalizing on same night lays and more with just not calibrating for a DTF girl. Things start off really well with her messaging him first, complimenting his looks and essentially telling him she wants to fuck him in the second message. However, the guy completely fucks up by the second message by coming across as some insecure, sexually inexperienced boy instead of a sexual, confident, dominant man. The girl makes fun of him for his indirectness and he doesn’t seem to pick up on the joke. Notice how fast she lost attraction. It only took two texts from him for her to go from “I kind of want to fuck you” to “you are lame dude”. This is because women crave men who are sexually confident and not afraid to go for what they want while being smart/aware enough to pick up on social cues. They are hoping you’ll be that guy and when you fail to deliver, they lose attraction fast.
- Overly nice/overly eager – Not too different from the previous point. This is when your conversation generally lacks that man–to-woman polarity. Quite common amongst non-puas. They play it safe and act overly nice in an attempt to get the girl to like them. Unfortunately, that’s not how attraction works. Women are attracted to men who are not afraid to say or do what they want, not “nice guys”. However, this shouldn’t be taken to mean that you should be a dick. That is an even worse approach as it will create an adversarial relationship andwon’t even get you the date. Instead, be direct & honest in a calibrated way. If a girl says something you like, then appropriately reward her for it. If she says something you don’t like, then playfully tease her for it. Don’t force it, but don’t be afraid of a little natural tension either. Let’s take a look at the example below:
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It’s bumble so the girl opens him first. Right away he responds with an over invested, over eager response. She answers fairly positively and he responds with an even more overly eager/nice message. There is a similarity between this and being overly gamey (both stem from being afraid to be direct), but instead of the girl thinking you are weirdo, she just thinks you are a pussy. In every message throughout this interaction, the guy comes off feminine and borderline gay. This isn’t how a man talks to a woman. This is how two gay best friends chit chat. He purposely avoids any tension and tries to play it super safe. Notice how he just comes off way too excited about everything she says. In some ways this is better than being overly gamey, because some girls will still meet up with a guy who they think is a pussy. However, it won’t be to fuck, it’ll be to get a free drink or complain about their problems. He’ll be her emotional bitch.
- Overinvesting –This will almost always go along with the previous mistake. However, often times can also be a standalone problem as well. More of an intermediate mistake. A lot of times guys who over-invest actually have fairly solid game in person, but haven’t learned how to be curt & succinct with their messages. This one is much less of a deal breaker than the previous six, but still shouldn’t be ignored. You will save time and get better responses in the long term if you avoid being overly wordy. Let’s take a look at the example below:
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In terms of game, this is probably the best example in this chapter. He’s not overly gamey, weird, over-eager or un-calibrated. He is normal, flirty, strategic and most importantly pursuing his purpose (somewhat directly). However, this interaction could still be better if the guy used less emoticons, “lols” and punctuation marks. And was a little more curt & succinct with every message. This would save him time typing and ironically likely result in more investment/ enthusiasm from the girl. I’m going to take a few of his messages and show how they could have been said in a less invested way, but still getting the same point across:
Original “I’ve been meaning to do an ice cream crawl, and really see who has the best ice cream in the city, you down?”
Shorter “Good. Let’s see if we can find the best ice cream in the city. Down?”
Original “That’s cool, I work days so can only go in the evenings you are probably a night owl anyways lol”
Shorter “Cool. I’m only free in the evenings. You seem like a night owl though”
Original “You Drive? Or Uber everywhere? =) I’m gonna guess you have an epic uber bill…”
Shorter “Do you drive or keep an uber on retainer?”
You get the gist. The goal isn’t necessary to fry your brain to cut out one or two extra words, but to honestly look for situations where you are being overly wordy and work on becoming more curt & succinct.
- Too needy/paranoid of being too needy– These are the two extremes quite often found onTinder. A lot of guys just act too needy and will double or triple message a girl if she doesn’t reply right away thinking she is ignoring them, when in reality she just got busy. This comes off as unattractive for obvious reasons. On the other end of the spectrum are guys who are paranoid of appearing needy in any way (common amongst PUA’s) and give up way too easily. As previously mentioned you can be extremely persistent without being needy. Guys who have the “too needy paranoia” are usually quick to unmatch or refuse to ever strategically double text. This results in them leaving a lot of the more challenging opportunities on the table. Instead of sharing screenshots of other guys fucking up, I will share a few of my lay reports where I was extremely persistent without being needy and gotthe girl as a result:
https://www.playingfire.com/hot-18-year-old-tinder-lr-ridiculous-persistence/
https://www.playingfire.com/hot-flaky-submissive-18-year-old-tinder-lr/
Both of these are fairly extreme examples and the vast majority of your interactions will not require this much persistence to close. Also, notice how both of these girls are very young and quite attractive. If that is your target market, then you are definitely going to have to learn to be more persistent!
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A big theme you might be noticing is how a lot of these common mistakes bleed in together and most conversations involve several mistakes sprinkled throughout. Furthermore, you probably noticed how it’s rarely the first mistake that causes the conversation to fizzle out. Most girls will give you a little slack. The amount of slack will be based on the girl’s personality and how much she likes you (your SMV & her mood at the time). That is why your text game DOES NOT have to be flawless (there isn’t even really such a thing). It just has to be good enough. By following the “General Guidelines” and avoiding the “Common Mistakes” you will significantly increase your chance of being in that “good enough” range (i.e optimal), which will get you laid time and time again.
To quote Nitin (who has the best text game I know): ”The assumption should be that they are looking to get fucked good by a non-pussy ass lil bitch that’ll turn them on, make them comfortable & make them laugh a little”. I couldn’t agree more.
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